174. Reverse 1031 Exchanges Made Simple with Scott Saunders

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Trent: Welcome back to another episode of the deal deep dive segment on the Westside Investors Network podcast. I'm your host, Trent Werner. In this segment, our future guests will share their unique stories on a specific deal they've invested in. We will dive deep into finding the deal, financing the deal, writing an offer, and the due diligence. Do us a solid and smash that subscribe button, leave us a rating, and share this episode.

And now let's dive deep. Welcome back to the Westside Investors Network podcast. I'm your host, Trent Warner. On today's episode, we are joined by Scott Saunders with Asset Protection Incorporated, API. Scott is a senior vice president and specializes in taxes and ten thirty one exchange.

Scott also owns over 80 assets in his real estate portfolio across nine different states. Scott and I are gonna dive deep into the different types of exchanges that the tax code allows for, as well as a case study on a pretty intricate reverse ten thirty one exchange. Scott's also gonna share a little bit about his portfolio and how he got comfortable investing out of state and out of his backyard and was able to find better returns for his real estate investments. Now let's welcome Scott Saunders. Scott Saunders joining the Win podcast.

Scott, thanks for joining us today.

Scott: Trent, great to be with you here today. Really looking forward to it. Thanks so much.

Trent: And we've we've been chatting a little bit offline, and Scott has a a pretty good single family, small multifamily portfolio. But Scott is also proficient in ten thirty one exchanges and taxes surrounding real estate. Scott, tell the people that are listening a little bit about your portfolio and your background in real estate.

Scott: Yeah, happy to do that. So professionally, I got in the ten thirty one exchange business back in 1988. So I help investors do ten thirty one exchanges to improve their ROI, scale up and grow a portfolio. So that's what I do. Personally, I'm also a real estate investor.

I drink to Kool Aid. And I love real estate, I see what it does for people. So I've been growing my own portfolio. I've got assets in about nine different states. And so I see real estate is just a great way to build wealth, right?

You get to take advantage of tax advantages, you get leverage, cash flow appreciation, all these things working for you. So I do that with my own portfolio. And I enjoy both sides. It's fun professionally to be on the ten thirty one side. And then I also, I'm trying to grow my own portfolio and get that bigger and bigger.

So it's a lot of fun.

Trent: And which one came first, the ten thirty one professional side or the real estate investor side?

Scott: Yeah, the ten thirty one professionally. It took me a while before I dipped my toe in the waters and started buying assets. And, know, in all honesty, Trent, I went through a couple divorces, and anybody's done that, you lose some assets, you need to do a rebuild. So that's what I'm doing.

Trent: Well, and you clearly know what you're doing because you're working in pretty, what should I say, important important niche of real estate, especially when it comes to swapping out and growing your portfolio, adjusting your portfolio, as well as making sure you're keeping the most amount of money in your pocket right now. Right?

Scott: Absolutely. You know, that's a lot of investors don't know it, but you know, you can't do something like an exchange with your stock, right? If I buy Apple or Google stock, and if I sell it, I've got to pay the taxes. With real estate, I can take an asset that's appreciated with gain, and I can redeploy the equity into better performing properties. So real estate investors have just a huge advantage and that the tax code has incentives for real estate investors.

So take full advantage of them and then use that to grow a portfolio. And anybody that's buying more than just a couple properties, you probably have some time want to look at doing an exchange as properties appreciate, and you get a lot of equity. That's what you can kind of take and leverage, you know, and really grow the portfolio, go from one asset to two, two to four, four to eight, and kind of build it from there.

Trent: Yeah, and that's, I don't remember who said it or who, where I heard it, but I think it was a podcast back in the day, someone someone said that a lot of people will analyze return on investment ROI. But this person was talking about return on equity, ROE. And if you're able to get a better return on your equity, and by moving into a different asset, that's probably something you should do. What they failed to mention in that podcast episode was a 10:31 exchange. They talked about return on equity, but they didn't talk about paying less in taxes right now through an exchange or this type of vehicle, which I think is a huge component, like what you just talked about.

If you have all this equity, and you're able to do better in a different asset, you might as well be smart with your exchange and go through the exchange and do it the right way to benefit yourself right now.

Scott: 100%. Trent, I love you brought up the return on equity. A lot of people, it's a common misunderstanding. Somebody buys an asset, they sit on it for ten years, and there's all this equity and it's producing positive cash flow. But if you look at how hard that equity is working for you, you may not be getting nearly the return you are.

I've seen people that I've analyzed that you can put the money in a bank and get the same two, three, 4% of return that they're getting. So you know, it's an important one as an investor to kind of look at that. And then the ten thirty one, you know, we call it a ten thirty one. It's an exchange and section ten thirty one of the tax code kind of outlines the rules. So by doing a ten thirty one exchange, and then redeploying the capital, you keep it in real estate, but you add some leverage to it, and now you're getting better returns, and it really juices a portfolio long term.

Trent: And Scott, I know we've talked about exchanges. Are you familiar with cost segregations?

Scott: I very much I've done probably 60 plus cost segregations myself. So, maybe you just queued me up there with a little slowball pitch, but I'll share with everybody. I don't want to time date stamp this and get in trouble. But right now in Congress, the House has passed a tax bill, and it includes something called a 100% bonus depreciation for the next five years. So here's my caveat.

We don't have the final bill, but it's moving through Congress now. The Senate's working on it. And I think there's a high likelihood we'll see something that'll come out of it. And 100% bonus depreciation is a huge benefit for real estate investors. So what you mentioned circling back, Trent, for those, I don't know if you've covered it, but cost segregation is a way to kind of front load your tax benefits.

So you reclassify real property, and you break it out into the personal property components that have a shorter depreciable life. And you're able to take all those tax benefits in year one with 100% bonus depreciation. And that, I'll tell you, for your audience that's listening, Trent, that is, that's like pouring fuel on the fire, it's really going to be a great tool. You know, if things proceed the way that I think they will, it'll be a great tool for real estate investors, and we got a five year window to take advantage of.

Trent: And I know a lot of people, especially people that may be newer, have a smaller portfolio that are trying to really expedite the growth of it, They start looking at all these different tax advantages that come with real estate investing, exchanges, cost segregations. A lot of people have heard of cost segregations and they think, you know, bonus depreciation, I've heard that online, I've read it online, and you can get 100% bonus appreciation year one. Can you still do a cost segregation in year four of owning a property?

Scott: You can do something called a look back study where you can go back to prior years and then redo it. So it's a little complicated. You've got to file some paperwork. And the fact is you've been taking the So let just step back, Trent. If somebody buys a single family rental, you depreciate the improvements over twenty seven and a half years.

If I have a commercial asset, it's over 39. So rough numbers, if I buy for half a million, let's say 20% is the land and 80% is the improvements. So ordinarily, I take that what's called straight line depreciation. I take that 400,000 divided by 27.5. And that's my depreciation over the next twenty seven and a half years.

When we do a cost segregation study, I'm going to take a lot of that in year one with 100% bonus depreciation. So that's the advantage of that. And a lot of people, sometimes people think it's for the commercial market. I think some of your audience does a lot of single families, which is my niche. I do it on small single families.

So if you buy 10 single families, that equals a small commercial building. So I'll just do 10 small cost segregation studies, get the collective benefits. So little bites at a time, but if you look at it collectively, it's a pretty nice tax advantage.

Trent: Absolutely. And that's, that's why I wanted to bring it up. Obviously, the ten thirty one exchange is a lot more popular, a lot more talked about in the real estate investment world. When it comes to, and I know you've said that when you start kind of getting a couple under your belt is when you start looking at ten thirty one exchanges. Mean, in theory, someone could exchange one asset for another.

They don't have to own five, ten, 15 doors in order to do this ten thirty one exchange.

Scott: Correct. Just a little step back, ten thirty one has been a tax code since 1921. So it's been around through boom economies, flat, down economies. It's been around a long time. And it really started for rural America, somebody with trade farms.

Now we see it with any property held for investment. But yeah, I would say somebody owns one rental and you've got some capital gain, The property is appreciated. Look at exchanging out of the one rental and maybe you just go from one rental into two more. So you don't have to have a lot. It's a great tool for the average investor to really become a big investor in a fairly short period of time.

If you do that for five or ten years, before you know it, you've actually accumulated a larger portfolio. My two most recent exchanges, sold one rental property and I exchanged into five other properties. So I went from two to a total of 10. So plus eight homes, just in a span of two exchanges. So it's a tremendous tool, tremendous tool.

Trent: And Scott, I want to talk a little bit about reverse exchanges. Okay. One, this reverse exchange is complicated. Understand it. But I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me and reverse exchange seems just more daunting and tricky.

Am I wrong in that?

Scott: You're not wrong. So a reverse exchange, let's just define what it is. And then I'll kind of unpack it. In reverse, I'm going to buy the new asset, the new property before I sell the existing. So you're going to do it, we got a really good deal, maybe it's a tight market, not a lot of inventory, maybe it's an off market listing, but you really need to close on it and a closed and the seller says, look, I'm gonna sell to the first person that meets my price.

You buy it, then you have one hundred and eighty days to sell it. So what's interesting when you talk about a reverse, it falls into a broader category called a parking arrangement transaction. And we had guidance from the IRS on this in 2000, is what's known as reproc 2000 dash 37. So there actually are four different types of parking arrangements. So a reverse is where I buy the first one, and then sell.

Another parking arrangement is what's called an improvement exchange, I sell, and then I build a new property or I renovate a property. A third variation is where I do a reverse improvement, I buy the new asset, I begin improving it, and then I sell my existing one. So that's called a reverse improvement. And the last one is called a leasehold improvement exchange, used to improve property that you already own. And all of those, as you mentioned, they are more complex, you've got to form an LLC, you have to register to do business, you have to file a tax return, there's a lot more hoops that the qualified intermediary that puts these together is going to require to do this.

You don't want to necessarily have the intermediary go entitled to toxic waste. They might have a phase one environmental report. You're going to need the insurance policy is going to have to cover the LLC as well as the new owner. So there a little bit more moving parts going on. But it's a great strategy.

So I would encourage your listeners, if you ever got a great purchase, and it's got great buy, you can buy it and then you have six months to sell your existing property, you're going to need more capital to do it. So not everybody's going to have the financial capability, you're going to have to come up with the down payment for the purchase with other funds, and you don't have the sale proceeds from what you're selling. So right there, some people may want to do it, but they may not have the capital to pull it off. But it's a great strategy. I'm really glad you brought that up, Trent.

Trent: Well, I've been around a situation recently, and this might be selfish for me to dive into it, but I think it's a great case study to talk about in a reverse exchange. So I have someone that I know that wants to do reverse exchange, but is believing that financing the new purchase or and it's not a down payment issue, it's a financing with the intermediary on a LLC. Have you had to go through that or seen that done before? Is it possible?

Scott: So everything's possible. So when we say reverse exchange, I was trying to simplify it, there really are two ways to do a reverse. I can park title on the replacement property, or I can be parked on my existing property. Most of the time, if I'm going to buy a new property, so here's where the financing is challenging. When we do a reverse, I'll walk you through the steps.

So Trent, let's say you're the investor, you would loan the qualified intermediary money, the qualified intermediary gives you a note, because you loan money, they owe you the money back, the qualified intermediary gives the money to the seller. And then the seller deeds that replacement property to the intermediary, and then the intermediary leases it back. But the issue with financing is most conventional lenders don't want to make a loan to trend. When the qualified intermediaries on title, they want the person they're making the loan to on title. So your conventional lenders, you know, Wells Fargo and Chase and the big ones, they're not going to want to participate in a reverse and that structure.

So you might need to go to like a local community bank, or you know, if you've got relationships, you're gonna have to spend some time talking about the structure, you can cross collateralize it with other properties. So there are a lot of ways to get it done. If you've got a conventional lender, what we do is they relinquished property parks. So we buy the new property, transfer title to your new property back to you, Trent, then you would deed your current property, the one you're selling to the qualified intermediary, and then we lease it back to you. So you manage it.

So there are two different ways to kind of accomplish it. And the financing can be an issue for some people, certainly. So it's something we try to bring up at the beginning and say, Hey, if you talk to your lender, are they willing to do it? The big lenders typically won't, but a lot of times smaller lenders, and there's a whole list, Trent. I've got resources out there of people that specialize in reverse loans.

They do it all the time. So it can certainly be done. And now here's a word from our sponsor. Get things done while you're on the move. Learn more about working with a virtual assistant through off-site professionals.

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Because when I when I was first brought it was first brought to my attention, I was spinning my wheels, and I've done normal exchanges before, but the reverse is something that I'm I'm new to. And I was, you know, coming up with all these ideas on how to make it happen. And I I stopped and I said, I don't know if any lender is going to lend because you're not going to be on title. But apparently it's possible.

Scott: It's possible. I'll tell you, I did a reverse probably fifteen years ago personally. So I'll kind of explain the circumstances that'll maybe give your audience a feel. So I was doing model homes in Arizona. So this is pre crash.

And so I would get the model home at a discount, lease it back to the builder for a couple of years, I get a whole bunch of rent. And then I would get the most improved, you know, and we're always told get the least improved in a neighborhood, I get the most improved. But the builder would discount everything to me because we had a relationship. So I had done a bunch of these. The builder called me up on a Saturday, hey, Scott, here's the new property, here's the price, here's the discount.

I need you to close on the next Friday, right? So I need to buy it immediately. And he said, before you can tell me whether or not you can do it, he's like, just be aware, I got 99 people behind you, that'll take this deal all day long, meaning I was going to jeopardize my business relationship. If I didn't buy it, he probably now have another relationship. And now my good deal would potentially, you know, kind of slip away because I couldn't close.

So what did I do? On the phone, I said, I'll buy it. There was no written contract, you know, there was none of the normal things. It was a relationship. And I said, I'll buy it.

I bought the new property. I sold my existing one, but it was worth more than the new purchase. So then I did a forward exchange into a second replacement property. So reversed into one sold, had excess money, bought a second. So I want to point that out to you, Trent, because there's some creativity here when you really put your thinking cap on.

I'd recommend to everybody in your audience, bounce your situation off your tax advisor. You definitely need their input. And so just review it. Get with a good qualified intermediary, who's got some experience and just kind of brainstorm what you want to accomplish. And you might find there are a couple ways to get it accomplished.

Trent: Yeah, and I mean, that's a scenario that I've never even heard of before where you're reversing and with the same funds, you're also going to a forward exchange, which I knew you could do multiple properties, but I didn't know you could do multiple exchange strategies, I guess.

Scott: Yeah, yeah, you absolutely can. And hey, hopefully, people that are listening to this can see that an exchange isn't just a cookie cutter deal, right? If you're cool with it, can I just walk through the basic delayed exchange? Is that alright? Just to kind of go through what goes on?

Trent: So absolutely,

Scott: let me just walk you through simply what happens, you list your property, you get it under contract with a buyer. So once I've got a buyer, you contact what's called a qualified intermediary, sometimes you hear us called an intermediary facilitator, accommodator, QI, but we're going to have to be assigned into your purchase and sale agreements. So we step into the shoes as a seller. And you've got to set up an exchange before you close escrow. So that's really important.

You can't set it up. If you've already closed, now have a taxable sale. You close, and the money goes to the qualified intermediary, that's day zero, they've got forty five calendar days to identify property they want to buy, and then another one hundred and thirty five for a maximum of one hundred and eighty to purchase it. So then properties under contract, that contracts assigned to the qualified intermediary. And now on the purchase, we take the money we're holding, we buy the new property and then transfer it back to the investor.

So that's just the basics of what we call a delayed or deferred exchange. Very, very common that you know, in Northwest, we do them all the time. They've been around for many years. In fact, you may or may not know it, but up in the Northwest is where the first delayed exchange started. A case called TJ Stoker in 1979 started the whole delayed exchange industry.

So the Northwest is kind of the trailblazer for these types of transactions.

Trent: And so when you say delayed exchange, is that kind of the classic exchange that you hear of when you hear someone say 10:31 exchange?

Scott: It is. So they all fit under the tax code section ten thirty one, but 97% of all exchanges are what we call a delayed exchange where you sell, you can identify multiple properties, and then you've got that time deadline to close on those properties. Yeah, that's the most common format by far.

Trent: And I guess, what happens if let's, you know, let's say you get you got a million bucks you have to place in your delayed exchange. What happens if you can't close on all those properties in the timeline with, let's say you're going go from one property, you got a million dollars to place and you want to buy four, three of the four close in that timeline, but that last one doesn't.

Scott: In that case, have what we call a partially deferred exchange. So the money that you got into those properties is deferred. If you have money left over, there's a term for that that you've probably heard of. It's called taxable cash boot. So any money is left over, then goes back to the investor.

They'll pay taxes on that amount, But the three that they acquired are tax deferred. To let you know, I've done hundreds of thousands of these, about a third of all taxpayers and investors do partially deferred exchanges. So that might open up some planning opportunities. Sometimes people think, I'm doing an exchange, I have to put all the money in. You don't, you just any money that's left over, you pay taxes.

And then there's another type of boot called mortgage boot. So if I sell with $100,000 mortgage, I want to have 100,000 or more, I want to buy it. If I went from 100,000 mortgage down to 80, and I didn't offset it by adding new cash, I'd have 20,000 of mortgage boots. So the way that I simplify it is, if your listeners want a 100% deferral, need to number one, reinvest all of the net proceeds. So the net equity after tax, and number two, have the same or a greater amount of debt.

Trent: Interesting. I did not know the debt part.

Scott: Yeah, that's why I brought it up. A lot of people kind of intuitively, Trent, we know if I take cash out, I'll have to pay taxes. But the IRS says if you're relieved of a debt obligation, your balance sheet gets better, right? So they just tax that as if you put the cash in your pocket. So what you really want to do is look at your closing statement, look at your net equity, look at the mortgage payoff.

As long as all that cash goes into one or more properties held for investment, and you've got the same or a greater amount of debt, and it can be on one property or multiple, then you've got 100% deferral. And Trent, let me just share something with you that's awesome about exchanges. You can do this throughout your entire lifetime. And then you've got a lot of gain, right? Let's say I bought my first property for 100,000.

And I've done exchanges throughout my lifetime and my portfolio is worth $20,000,000. The day that I pass away, my heirs get it with what's called a step up in basis, it's worth 20,000,000. So I never paid capital gain taxes, and neither will my heirs. So it's a wonderful strategy for, you know, passing on wealth and real estate to heirs and you build the portfolio while you're alive. And your heirs get it at the value of the portfolio at the time that you pass away.

So it's, it's well worth everybody giving a hard look to an exchange. I tell people, the only time you don't want to exchange is when you either need the cash for something else, or you're going to get out of real estate, and you're going to go into, you know, stocks, bonds, syndication, some other type of investment. But if you like real estate, you're almost always better off doing exchanges. And maybe you reposition your portfolio, right? You go from single family to commercial or industrial, you can go into all these different types of assets that are real estate.

So it doesn't have to always be single family or land to land. Any real property held for investment qualifies. And that's a, that's a broad category, right? It includes shopping centers, a vacation home held for investment, oil and gas programs can qualify air rights. I mean, the types of like kind property abroad, there's something out there called the Delaware Statutory Trust, the DST that qualifies.

So a big menu of different properties that'll that'll work there.

Trent: Yeah, I had a client a few years ago, he sold his gas station and then bought three, three multifamily properties with it. So that was that was a fun one. Scott, going back to that, when we were talking about the boot, right? So if you don't get that last property in time, the three closed and the fourth didn't on time, but you still close on it after the timeline, it's great, you got a new property, but you're still paying taxes on that amount of money for that last property, right?

Scott: That's correct. The timeline they set in stone, you've got six months. And when I say set in stone, these are just calendar dates, they'll go through holidays, right? We just had Memorial Day. So if your 180 a day was Memorial Day, and your title companies closed, you'd want to close it the Friday before.

So they're just sequential, but it's one hundred and eighty days. And I'll tell you, Trent, when the market was frothy a few years ago, you know, when properties were just selling like hotcakes, you didn't get any extension because it was a seller's market and inventory would turn over really fast. So the rules apply through all sorts of markets, just got to make sure you follow the rules.

Trent: Absolutely. Well, Scott, I mean, I think you just gave us a lesson on exchanges more so than most people will learn in any classroom setting. So I appreciate that. I wanna talk about your personal portfolio. You know, you said you've you've been focused on growing that.

You started in single family. Now you're getting into the multifamily space a little bit. What is it that you look for as a person that invests in a portfolio for yourself on you know, a lot of times when we're talking to people on this show, we're talking about end, $2,030,000,000 dollar deals. I want to know what deals that are in a realistic attainable arena look like. And you already you said you have what, 80 units?

Like that's not a small portfolio.

Scott: Yeah, I'm 80 plus assets this time. You know, I like I one of my kind of bright lines, and I can't take credit for this. I don't know you know, Ken McElroy at MC companies, he's got a big YouTube channel is a friend of mine, you know, big commercial investor. So he's Robert Kiyosaki's guy who invests for Robert Kiyosaki. So he's got apartment buildings.

I kind of share with what he says, I always buy for cash flow. It doesn't mean it's got to kick off lots of cash flow. I bought some assets recently that maybe the cash flow is $80 a month. It's not a lot. When I was buying a few years ago, my initial investment, I'd be getting 300, 400 a month in cash flow.

So number one, I want some positive cash flow because that's what helps carry you through the hard times, right? When you got a tenant turn or something goes sideways, having the positive cash flow keeps you in the game of real estate. Real estate's the best asset class hands down, but you got to be in it for the long haul. So that means, you know, it's got a cash flow, you got to carry reserves, you got to be prudent about it. So that's, that's what I look for is cash flow.

The other thing I look for is a long term relationship. When I first started buying, I was willing to buy a little here and buy a little there. Now I go deeper into some markets, you know, that I'm in, and I've got good relationships. So I want a good PM. But I know and I trust, I'm happy to pay my PM, all my properties are out of state.

I have one in Colorado, but I self manage a vacation property. But other than that, somewhat a good relationship. And I buy a lot of turnkey real estate. So I've got relationships with turnkey providers that have developed over time, they do quality product. And so it helps me with an exchange having a good provider.

My last deal I did a few years ago, I exchanged that Arizona into St. Louis, I called my turnkey provider, I said, here's what I'm doing. I need five assets. He's like, oh, I can't do five, but I can give you four. And so just because I had a relationship, I knew I was getting four quality assets.

That makes a big difference in doing an exchange successfully there.

Trent: I mean, that honestly kind of tees me up for another great question. As someone that invests in my backyard, I have found it extremely difficult to be confident investing out of state, especially for the first deal or two just because it's new. Right? So what ultimately made you confident enough to just pull the trigger in and buy something that's not in your backyard, especially to start?

Scott: Yeah, I'll give you two things. I'll give you a little phrase. The math is the path. What made me confident is I could get a better return buying in Midwest markets that I could in Colorado. So, in my market here in Colorado, if just look at my neighborhood, the houses are $700 to a million.

They're not going to cash flow, they're not going to rent anywhere close to the 1% rule. So that was number one. Number two, and let me to your point, I network with some other people and some other groups. I'm another group of investors and they already have existing relationships. So instead of me just kind of blindly on the internet, looking at the MLS or doing that, I teamed up with people that were already successful and had relationships that were vetted and trusted, and that made it much, much easier.

So I think that's a big key, network with your friends and other people. You can join real estate groups, but try and get with people that have a track record and a history working with people. Now it's the opposite. Now, you know, I sing the praise of real estate to everybody. My girlfriend, you know, like, okay, go here, just buy from them, anything you buy, it's great.

Just just start buying assets, like get stuff. So now that I've got good relationships, I feel very confident. And it doesn't mean anything's a home run, you know, if you buy 20 assets, one of them is going to be a dud, it doesn't mean you're going to lose money, it's just not going to meet your expectations. So it's numbers game, you know, we've all dated, right? You date 10 people, and nobody bets, not all 10 are great, right?

So you just go next and you move on. So kinda like that with real estate.

Trent: Well, Scott, I appreciate you offering that insight. Is there a place that people can hear more from you or connect with you?

Scott: Yeah, they can. So I'm with an intermediary called Asset Preservation API Exchange. My toll free number is (888) 531-1031. And my email is just my name, scottapiexchange dot com. So, you know, anybody's welcome to reach out.

I love working with other investors and just helping people out. That's what I do professionally. It's what I do personally. So it really meshes well together.

Trent: I love it. Scott, thank you so much for joining us.

Scott: Trent, had a blast. Thanks so much.

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